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	<title>Comments for Sancrucensis</title>
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		<title>Comment on What is the Primary Intrinsic Common Good of Political (or Imperial) Community? by sancrucensis</title>
		<link>http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/what-is-the-primary-intrinsic-common-good-of-political-or-imperial-community/#comment-1839</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sancrucensis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jun 2013 19:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/?p=1794#comment-1839</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well said! I think you are exactly right. I too think that there can be good republics as well as monarchies. Very good point about hereditary monarchy being less liable to colonization by Enlightenment ideas. This is a point that Aelianus as well (although he is actually a republican in the abstract). Another point that I would make w/r/t the republic vs. monarchy thing: republicanism has a much stronger case if one takes Hannon&#039;s view of the primary intrinsic common good of political life than if one takes mine.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said! I think you are exactly right. I too think that there can be good republics as well as monarchies. Very good point about hereditary monarchy being less liable to colonization by Enlightenment ideas. This is a point that Aelianus as well (although he is actually a republican in the abstract). Another point that I would make w/r/t the republic vs. monarchy thing: republicanism has a much stronger case if one takes Hannon&#8217;s view of the primary intrinsic common good of political life than if one takes mine.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What is the Primary Intrinsic Common Good of Political (or Imperial) Community? by Ryan Burke</title>
		<link>http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/what-is-the-primary-intrinsic-common-good-of-political-or-imperial-community/#comment-1820</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan Burke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jun 2013 21:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/?p=1794#comment-1820</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thinking about it, one issue with republicanism is its weaker defenses to colonization by Enlightenment thought. Hereditary rule makes no real sense unless there is some conception of political hierarchy as reflective of or linked to natural hierarchy, whereas fully elective governments can be conceptualized on a model of autonomous, rights-bearing individuals seeking optimal management of common affairs in their market-like interactions, just as stockholders seek optimal management in business concerns. I&#039;m think, for example, of types who recognize that Madison expected politicians to be self-interested and therefore sought to break up initiative across diverse institutions; and draw the lesson that politicians are *supposed* to pursue their own good rather than public goods for the system to work. This is a hasty thought; you might correct me regarding past uses of the hereditary principle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thinking about it, one issue with republicanism is its weaker defenses to colonization by Enlightenment thought. Hereditary rule makes no real sense unless there is some conception of political hierarchy as reflective of or linked to natural hierarchy, whereas fully elective governments can be conceptualized on a model of autonomous, rights-bearing individuals seeking optimal management of common affairs in their market-like interactions, just as stockholders seek optimal management in business concerns. I&#8217;m think, for example, of types who recognize that Madison expected politicians to be self-interested and therefore sought to break up initiative across diverse institutions; and draw the lesson that politicians are *supposed* to pursue their own good rather than public goods for the system to work. This is a hasty thought; you might correct me regarding past uses of the hereditary principle.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What is the Primary Intrinsic Common Good of Political (or Imperial) Community? by Ryan Burke</title>
		<link>http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/what-is-the-primary-intrinsic-common-good-of-political-or-imperial-community/#comment-1819</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan Burke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jun 2013 21:26:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/?p=1794#comment-1819</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s a fair point, but then it would seem that this disloyalty to God, the fountainhead of mis-justice in all social relations, is not inherently more linked to republics than to any other system of governance. Just as there have been monarchies both well- and badly- ordered (by well-ordered, I mean at least intentionally ordered to reflect the divine order, however much the execution may leave wanting), there have been and could be again both well-ordered or badly-ordered republics. The essence of the problem with modern states seems to be two-fold (though interrelated): secularism, which requires the state to turn away from any intelligible source of measure of order higher than itself; and a contract theory which requires the state to view itself as an artificial corporation of fundamentally autonomous individuals with no measure of the mutual obligations involved except, again, itself. 

I think your point about patriotic songs, poetry, etc. is quite good--throughout the West I don&#039;t think the great majority of any nation fully embraces the consequences of secularized, contract-based politics, but merely espouses the principles while relying on older, increasingly vague sentiments to sand away the rougher edges. Thus the typical American will describe the origin and role of states and government as a secular Lockean, while singing old anthems and songs that explicitly or implicitly invoke a far different conception, and all the while leaning on a pared-down, Protestant Christianity to fill in the stark lines of his professed philosophy. Even now, this representative person may recoil from his own professed secular contractualism if he could see it shorn of the inconsistencies left in popular imagination from a past era which disguise its sharper features; as the twentieth and twenty-first centuries go on, however, it seems the principles increasingly displace or colonize the tradition that humanize them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a fair point, but then it would seem that this disloyalty to God, the fountainhead of mis-justice in all social relations, is not inherently more linked to republics than to any other system of governance. Just as there have been monarchies both well- and badly- ordered (by well-ordered, I mean at least intentionally ordered to reflect the divine order, however much the execution may leave wanting), there have been and could be again both well-ordered or badly-ordered republics. The essence of the problem with modern states seems to be two-fold (though interrelated): secularism, which requires the state to turn away from any intelligible source of measure of order higher than itself; and a contract theory which requires the state to view itself as an artificial corporation of fundamentally autonomous individuals with no measure of the mutual obligations involved except, again, itself. </p>
<p>I think your point about patriotic songs, poetry, etc. is quite good&#8211;throughout the West I don&#8217;t think the great majority of any nation fully embraces the consequences of secularized, contract-based politics, but merely espouses the principles while relying on older, increasingly vague sentiments to sand away the rougher edges. Thus the typical American will describe the origin and role of states and government as a secular Lockean, while singing old anthems and songs that explicitly or implicitly invoke a far different conception, and all the while leaning on a pared-down, Protestant Christianity to fill in the stark lines of his professed philosophy. Even now, this representative person may recoil from his own professed secular contractualism if he could see it shorn of the inconsistencies left in popular imagination from a past era which disguise its sharper features; as the twentieth and twenty-first centuries go on, however, it seems the principles increasingly displace or colonize the tradition that humanize them.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What is the Primary Intrinsic Common Good of Political (or Imperial) Community? by sancrucensis</title>
		<link>http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/what-is-the-primary-intrinsic-common-good-of-political-or-imperial-community/#comment-1816</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sancrucensis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jun 2013 11:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/?p=1794#comment-1816</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You make a good point. One can also criticize Cavanaugh for the same reason that Osborne criticizes MacIntyre; for not paying enough attention to the need for a coercive societas perfecta. But where I think Cavanaugh strength is in is implication of supposedly &quot;secular&quot; states in idolatry. As Augustine says: &quot; if the republic is the good of the people, and there is no people if it be not associated by a common acknowledgment of right, and if there is no right where there is no justice, then most certainly it follows that there is no republic where there is no justice. Further, justice is that virtue which gives every one his due. Where, then, is the justice of man, when he deserts the true God and yields himself to impure demons? Is this to give every one his due? Or is he who keeps back a piece of ground from the purchaser, and gives it to a man who has no right to it, unjust, while he who keeps back himself from the God who made him, and serves wicked spirits, is just?.... when a man does not serve God, what justice can we ascribe to him, since in this case his soul cannot exercise a just control over the body, nor his reason over his vices? And if there is no justice in such an individual, certainly there can be none in a community composed of such persons. Here, therefore, there is not that common acknowledgment of right which makes an assemblage of men a people whose affairs we call a republic.&quot; Civ. Dei XIX,21]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You make a good point. One can also criticize Cavanaugh for the same reason that Osborne criticizes MacIntyre; for not paying enough attention to the need for a coercive societas perfecta. But where I think Cavanaugh strength is in is implication of supposedly &#8220;secular&#8221; states in idolatry. As Augustine says: &#8221; if the republic is the good of the people, and there is no people if it be not associated by a common acknowledgment of right, and if there is no right where there is no justice, then most certainly it follows that there is no republic where there is no justice. Further, justice is that virtue which gives every one his due. Where, then, is the justice of man, when he deserts the true God and yields himself to impure demons? Is this to give every one his due? Or is he who keeps back a piece of ground from the purchaser, and gives it to a man who has no right to it, unjust, while he who keeps back himself from the God who made him, and serves wicked spirits, is just?&#8230;. when a man does not serve God, what justice can we ascribe to him, since in this case his soul cannot exercise a just control over the body, nor his reason over his vices? And if there is no justice in such an individual, certainly there can be none in a community composed of such persons. Here, therefore, there is not that common acknowledgment of right which makes an assemblage of men a people whose affairs we call a republic.&#8221; Civ. Dei XIX,21</p>
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		<title>Comment on What is the Primary Intrinsic Common Good of Political (or Imperial) Community? by sancrucensis</title>
		<link>http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/what-is-the-primary-intrinsic-common-good-of-political-or-imperial-community/#comment-1815</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sancrucensis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jun 2013 11:37:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/?p=1794#comment-1815</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think there is, but it would need a good amount of argument to establish. My main point here was that a Platonic view of order as the primary political common good allows one to see that it is possible to have a good political community that is bigger than an Aristotelian polis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is, but it would need a good amount of argument to establish. My main point here was that a Platonic view of order as the primary political common good allows one to see that it is possible to have a good political community that is bigger than an Aristotelian polis.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What is the Primary Intrinsic Common Good of Political (or Imperial) Community? by Ryan Burke</title>
		<link>http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/what-is-the-primary-intrinsic-common-good-of-political-or-imperial-community/#comment-1810</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan Burke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Jun 2013 18:27:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/?p=1794#comment-1810</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ll have to mull it over more, but I don&#039;t think that Cavanaugh has shown that the modern state is inherently opposed to the common good. Or rather, I don&#039;t think his sketch of the rise of the modern state (largely taken from Sprayer) is quite accurate, and therefore leads to imprecision in placing the source of the problems he highlights.

No attention is paid, for one, to the legal continuity between the medieval and modern West. In 1250 and in 1550 there was a Kingdom of France, legally distinct from the King of France, using in either case a common legal framework. The key change is not the new development of an abstract concept of &quot;France,&quot; but a rearrangement of agency as to public functions within it. And that project, which eventually saw the French Crown (and its Republican successors) as the unique original agent of public functions within defined territorial limits is the end result of centuries of Capetian efforts towards it. The France of 1550 differs from the France of 1250, politically, chiefly in that the Crown had made great strides in its perennial projects of territorial expansion and location of public initiative with the Crown within that territory. Or, one might see the great oak tree overpowering all around it, and wish for the sapling of before; the trouble is that the problems of the ancient oak exist in some form in the sapling, and a great deal of ingenuity must be spent in identifying exactly where and in what ways to arrest its growth, assuming that possible.

More broadly, I wonder if the Virgilian empire--peaceful, universal in scale, perfectly ordered--is useful more as a model than a reality. Such a conception can serve as a focus to direct our efforts in re-ordering existing political arrangements (I have a bust of Charles V in my office, for more or less this reason), without expectation that the inevitable decay of this world will ever allow it to actually exist, or at best exist briefly before becoming corrupt and killing much good in its corruption.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll have to mull it over more, but I don&#8217;t think that Cavanaugh has shown that the modern state is inherently opposed to the common good. Or rather, I don&#8217;t think his sketch of the rise of the modern state (largely taken from Sprayer) is quite accurate, and therefore leads to imprecision in placing the source of the problems he highlights.</p>
<p>No attention is paid, for one, to the legal continuity between the medieval and modern West. In 1250 and in 1550 there was a Kingdom of France, legally distinct from the King of France, using in either case a common legal framework. The key change is not the new development of an abstract concept of &#8220;France,&#8221; but a rearrangement of agency as to public functions within it. And that project, which eventually saw the French Crown (and its Republican successors) as the unique original agent of public functions within defined territorial limits is the end result of centuries of Capetian efforts towards it. The France of 1550 differs from the France of 1250, politically, chiefly in that the Crown had made great strides in its perennial projects of territorial expansion and location of public initiative with the Crown within that territory. Or, one might see the great oak tree overpowering all around it, and wish for the sapling of before; the trouble is that the problems of the ancient oak exist in some form in the sapling, and a great deal of ingenuity must be spent in identifying exactly where and in what ways to arrest its growth, assuming that possible.</p>
<p>More broadly, I wonder if the Virgilian empire&#8211;peaceful, universal in scale, perfectly ordered&#8211;is useful more as a model than a reality. Such a conception can serve as a focus to direct our efforts in re-ordering existing political arrangements (I have a bust of Charles V in my office, for more or less this reason), without expectation that the inevitable decay of this world will ever allow it to actually exist, or at best exist briefly before becoming corrupt and killing much good in its corruption.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What is the Primary Intrinsic Common Good of Political (or Imperial) Community? by cordatus</title>
		<link>http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/what-is-the-primary-intrinsic-common-good-of-political-or-imperial-community/#comment-1809</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cordatus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Jun 2013 14:38:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/?p=1794#comment-1809</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is there need for a universal political authority rather than for lots of local or national authorities subject to Boniface&#039;s successor?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there need for a universal political authority rather than for lots of local or national authorities subject to Boniface&#8217;s successor?</p>
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		<title>Comment on What is the Primary Intrinsic Common Good of Political (or Imperial) Community? by sancrucensis</title>
		<link>http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/what-is-the-primary-intrinsic-common-good-of-political-or-imperial-community/#comment-1806</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sancrucensis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Jun 2013 07:03:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/?p=1794#comment-1806</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m beginning to think that history bears out Augustine&#039;s pessimism about the relative numbers of the City of God and the City of Man. If the citizens of the City of God are always in a minority (and even that minority is often betraying its loyalties and serving the other city (as we are constantly reminded simply by examining our consciences)) then it would seem that the chances for a political or imperial order that really serves the common good are rather slim.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m beginning to think that history bears out Augustine&#8217;s pessimism about the relative numbers of the City of God and the City of Man. If the citizens of the City of God are always in a minority (and even that minority is often betraying its loyalties and serving the other city (as we are constantly reminded simply by examining our consciences)) then it would seem that the chances for a political or imperial order that really serves the common good are rather slim.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What is the Primary Intrinsic Common Good of Political (or Imperial) Community? by sancrucensis</title>
		<link>http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/what-is-the-primary-intrinsic-common-good-of-political-or-imperial-community/#comment-1805</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sancrucensis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Jun 2013 06:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/?p=1794#comment-1805</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the link! Very interesting. The point about &quot;political nature abhors a vacuum&quot; is very good.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link! Very interesting. The point about &#8220;political nature abhors a vacuum&#8221; is very good.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What is the Primary Intrinsic Common Good of Political (or Imperial) Community? by Thaddeus J. Kozinski</title>
		<link>http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/what-is-the-primary-intrinsic-common-good-of-political-or-imperial-community/#comment-1804</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thaddeus J. Kozinski]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 May 2013 20:48:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/?p=1794#comment-1804</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very good essay. I agree with you on the problems in MacIntyre and Cavanaugh. What is the solution? It can&#039;t be George&#039;s position, of course. The nation-state can&#039;t be the keeper of the common good, as it is an alliance. What can? Smaller nation-states?  I leave the problem unanswered at the end of my book because I don&#039;t know the solution. Does Augustine give us on? I don&#039;t think so. The best I can say is to keep knocking down the idols as they appear.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good essay. I agree with you on the problems in MacIntyre and Cavanaugh. What is the solution? It can&#8217;t be George&#8217;s position, of course. The nation-state can&#8217;t be the keeper of the common good, as it is an alliance. What can? Smaller nation-states?  I leave the problem unanswered at the end of my book because I don&#8217;t know the solution. Does Augustine give us on? I don&#8217;t think so. The best I can say is to keep knocking down the idols as they appear.</p>
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